Relationship between psychedelics and mental ilness

General Discussion about the PsyTrance scene, way of life, etc.
127 posts Page 1 of 6
herbsandspices
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:21 pm


So I'm watching Denton tonight and a sweet and nice sounding lady with seemingly profound schizophrenia opens her sketch book and produces two pictures (said to be descriptive of what she sees) that could easily be snapshots straight out of a dimethyltriptamine experience.

Coincidence?

Why has more study not been done on this? Or is it that I have just not googled enough...

Anyway throwing that one open.
venatrix
Posts: 2795
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:43 pm


...
Last edited by venatrix on Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 

3DTranceal
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:41 pm


yep,didnt want to watch it.
Back in the late 90's,I had quite a few experiences with lucy in the sky with diamonds.Been now 5 years since last time I had it,and all those demons and trips I experienced back then, are still in my mind, I had lots of good trips but those very few bad ones ,are the ones difficult to erase out of my brain . I'm pretty sure that after a few experiences with psychedelics you wont be the same...scary stuff. But,again,I dont regret it. I wish I could still do it,but dont want to end up at a psychiatric hospital,and I hope that it wasnt too late for me. I still love to death the doof scene though. Cant get enough of the music...boom......... :twisted:

 

SYNeR
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:07 am


The so-called relationship between psychedelics and mental illness is one of the main reasons psychedelics, particularly lucy, have had a bad name and been associated with causing mental problems & what not.

The problem in the 60's was that (mostly) government funded researchers were
testing lucy on people in a clinical/lab setting. As a result, people would often have bad trips due to the whole set/setting thing. And because of this, psychedelics began receiving a reputation as being psychomimetic in that they supposedly mimicked psychosis.

On the other hand, there were individual/freelance researchers who said this was utter bullshit, as they were administering lucy in a much more relaxed, therapeutic setting, and consequently bad trips were less frequent, or if they did happen, they weren't particularly long term.

A lot of the link between psychedelics and mental illness seems to be founded in this research which was typical of western medicine at the time - administer a drug, then observe its effects which were supposedly not influenced by anything such as setting.

Check out the book 'Acid Dreams' if you haven't already.. it goes into all this sort of stuff, and gives accounts of people flipping out (eg: CIA agents spiking each others drinks and the drinks of civilians) and on the flip side, gives accounts from researchers who administered it in a much more therapeutic setting and had success in its use for things like curing alcoholism (not a high cure rate, but was considered a good success rate at the time).. amongst other shit / positive uses.

Obviously, this only applies to one substance, but once again, I think the broad term of 'psychedelic drugs' got labelled as psychomimetic mostly because of lucy.

 

herbsandspices
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:21 pm


Hmm, I did read Acid Dreams a number of years back, it was interesting as a social history.

I was specifically talking about the relationship (if any?) between the brains ability to regulate dimethyltriptamine production in the pineal gland, and incidences of psychosis... I should have been more specific.

I reckon Lucy has been pretty much cleared by research.

 

venatrix
Posts: 2795
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:43 pm


...
Last edited by venatrix on Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 

jaimz
Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2001 10:58 pm


SYNeR wrote :
The problem in the 60's was that (mostly) government funded researchers were
testing lucy on people in a clinical/lab setting. As a result, people would often have bad trips due to the whole set/setting thing. And because of this, psychedelics began receiving a reputation as being psychomimetic in that they supposedly mimicked psychosis.

On the other hand, there were individual/freelance researchers who said this was utter bullshit, as they were administering lucy in a much more relaxed, therapeutic setting, and consequently bad trips were less frequent, or if they did happen, they weren't particularly long term.


This isn't true. I've known people - close friends - who have had major psychiatirc problems as a result of having only a small dose in a party environment. One very good friend of mine spent three months in a psychiatric hospital after having only two drops at a party.

Acid, in any measure, in any environment, can lead to permanent psychological damage. This is why it's illegal.

 

ATREYU
Posts: 1190
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 2:07 pm


In DMT the spirit molecule the theory is postulated that certain mental illnesses and certain supernatural phenomena such as abduction experiences may be a result of certain individuals brains creating an excess amount of dmt in the brain.

It is very sad when people go over the edge. I suspect that there is more to the story than, your brain is fucked. I think that in some cases people have a heightened sense of invisible forces.

I think that the way modern medicine/psychiatry handles the problem is no where near perfect.

 

The Journey Man Project
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:46 pm


yup I did my final trip about 9 years ago now... it was just to much. It was only a small dose on a paper tab, but it just completely fucked me over for about 6 months. Extrem visual disturbances, paranoia, nightmare, dangerous sleep walkign patterns and at one point my treating psychiatrist was concerned I was developing a "mild" case of paranoid schizophrenia... but luckily, thanks to the support of my partner, family and the medical world this didn't occur, but in total I'd say it was only about 5 years later I really had reality and life back down to a reasonably normal state, but I still have mild doses of extrem paranoia, and a rough ride with depression... luckily I'm off meds as well, they were messing em up a bit to... and I only realy used acid about 9 times over a 4 year period... I'm to scared to even smoke a bit of pot right now, and drinking more than 4-5 beers makes me extremely depressed and antisocial for days afterwards... I really don't reccomend taking lucy in the sky with diamonds for anyone, because evn tho the good trips are really damn fun, the bad ones are just severely damaging... smoke a bit of wackytobaccy and knock back soem tequila, maybe even some mdma, e or speed (nevere tried any of those)... but my own experience has made me an extreme advocate against the use of hallucinogens.

I do believe in personal choice and if you choose to do it I wont hold it gaainst you (friend etc. this is), but I will do my best to talk you out of it. But if you do it and it's bad, I'll be there for you as friend as well.

 

ATREYU
Posts: 1190
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 2:07 pm


One of the prominent theories behind why humans evolved into the inquisitive schizo sapiens we are today is the "Trance" headspace and the use of psychedelics.

'Graham Hancocks' research into the origins of the earliest caveart, + the doco n ABC " How Art Made the world " both point to altered states as being the missing link which led to the first artistic creations by man.

I think this is a good explanation why Humanity as a whole is semi schizophrenic. We are the only species on the planet who's mind is chattering away ceaselessly always craving attention. We are a neurotic species.

 

simon
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2001 8:33 pm


AFAIK, It is a theory that the pineal glad produces DMT, it is not proven.


Also, lucy in the sky with diamonds is a non specific trigger. It cannot trigger psychosis by itself. This has been extensively studied by Rick Strassman in 84 i think... That being said, there is no way to really know if the other triggers are in place, so if you have a history of mental illness in the fam, lucy in the sky with diamonds aint the best thing to take.

 

The Journey Man Project
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:46 pm


yeah, well, it wasn;t until after my experience that me and my sister did some background research that turned out to be interesting, and a good reasson to stay clean haha...

 

atmospsypherica
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:50 am


Well it's a good thing that some people are able to open up about their past in relation to drug experimentation. As for the Journey Man's account , I don't think you can get much more honest then this. I believe in drug education and the best way for that is to come from people who have experienced it.

Unfortunately when people go around saying how wonderful a drug experience is , all they are doing is promoting it's good to take drugs and adding to the peer pressure on the week and curious. So they are very selfish in ways because they don't take responsibility for their actions. For instance their friend who has a bad trip on their first time or after because they had good experiences previous and are blind to the fact that they are playing a dangerous game of roulette. Some may never fall into a bad trip scenario, but is it worth the risk?

I admire those people whom have a very open mind towards drugs use but on a personal scale have no interest to try it or learn by experience. Some don't learn and they fry their brains / life/ relationships to the people closest to them. It's not uncommon to have some sort of addictive compulsive disorder, these are not just limited to drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex. But drug abuse and addiction has to very delicately handled, thats why those who gone over the edge and come back are best placed to be councilors and mentors to the younger generation coming through.

I admire the way that The Journey Man wrote his post and thought he put into that. It has helped me to understand him a lot better. I have not come across somebody as so passionate on any form of music as him (even if its just the net). I wonder a lot about the subliminal messaging in Psytrance and Dark psytrance focused on drug use and journey into psychedelic experiences. I'm not going to say it's bad but what is it's purpose exactly? and is this something that progressive trance has moved away from because of the negative politics associated to the Psy scene? Is it why the scene in Victoria is more prog oriented and therefor the holder of more parties doofs and festivals.

A interesting listen to a audio tape of John Todd - years ago about rock music -
John Todd a former Illuminati: (The Witchcraft of Rock & Roll)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1
[quote]His name was John Todd, a former member of the illuminati. He warned us against the plan for world control before he was framed and ... all » effectively discredit by the illuminati. The words that he left on his audio tapes are still coming to pass which puts lots of credibility on his claim that he was an insider. This audio tape speaks about the dangers of rock and roll music including “Christian rockâ€
Last edited by atmospsypherica on Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 

The Journey Man Project
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:46 pm


I beleive that a lot of people often have confused the words psychedelic trance with having to take psychedelic to enjoy it... but I think, from my chats to some early founder in the scene, that is also means the music was heavily influenced by the psychedelic rock scene, not alway from the drugs themselves...

and as for proggi trance, I think that it is the influence of dance drugs like "e", creating a desrie tohave music that grooves rather than trips... I like progressive,. and enjoy playing it alot when friends are around because it is much more easier for the general public to get into, especially the last 2 years have seen a lot of commercial influences that I will admit I do enjoy... and as a dj it is nice to see everybody enjoy the music rather than the chosen few psy heads.

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


[quote="atmospsypherica"]
A interesting listen to a audio tape of John Todd - years ago about rock music -
John Todd a former Illuminati: (The Witchcraft of Rock & Roll)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1
[quote]His name was John Todd, a former member of the illuminati. He warned us against the plan for world control before he was framed and ... all » effectively discredit by the illuminati. The words that he left on his audio tapes are still coming to pass which puts lots of credibility on his claim that he was an insider. This audio tape speaks about the dangers of rock and roll music including “Christian rockâ€

 

tripn
Posts: 6721
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:28 pm


lol. anyone who associates the illuminati with satanism is either a chistian lunatic or a complete fuckwit (not that there is much difference between the two).

 

tripn
Posts: 6721
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:28 pm


as for the DMT thing.. in the rick strassman book they made a connection between DMT and near death experiences as well as alien abduction stories but from memory nothing much about schizophrenia or other mental illness.
infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


herbsandspices wrote :
So I'm watching Denton tonight and a sweet and nice sounding lady with seemingly profound schizophrenia opens her sketch book and produces two pictures (said to be descriptive of what she sees) that could easily be snapshots straight out of a dimethyltriptamine experience.

Coincidence?


Have you read "Heaven and Hell" by Huxley? Its usually in one book with "The doors of Perception". It contains a description of a schoziphrenic's experience and links it to the mescaline experience.

Anyway. Its no coincidence and the link that explains why her pictures are similar to tripper visuals are easily explained if you understand how psychedelics effect brain neurotransmitter levels and how such imbalances relate to mental illness.

Just read the sections on Dopamine and Seratonin here:
"The “Chemical Imbalanceâ€

 

SYNeR
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:07 am


jaimz wrote :
SYNeR wrote :
The problem in the 60's was that (mostly) government funded researchers were
testing lucy on people in a clinical/lab setting. As a result, people would often have bad trips due to the whole set/setting thing. And because of this, psychedelics began receiving a reputation as being psychomimetic in that they supposedly mimicked psychosis.

On the other hand, there were individual/freelance researchers who said this was utter bullshit, as they were administering lucy in a much more relaxed, therapeutic setting, and consequently bad trips were less frequent, or if they did happen, they weren't particularly long term.


This isn't true. I've known people - close friends - who have had major psychiatirc problems as a result of having only a small dose in a party environment. One very good friend of mine spent three months in a psychiatric hospital after having only two drops at a party.

Acid, in any measure, in any environment, can lead to permanent psychological damage. This is why it's illegal.


I was talking in general terms as to the two opposing schools of thought, and how these two opposing schools of thought, in general, tend to facilitate peoples belief in relationships between psychedelics and mental illness - which, of course, is true to an extent. Like with any drug, there's those who unfortunately may react differently and in a bad way.

 

SYNeR
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:07 am


simon wrote :
Also, lucy in the sky with diamonds is a non specific trigger. It cannot trigger psychosis by itself. This has been extensively studied by Rick Strassman in 84 i think... That being said, there is no way to really know if the other triggers are in place, so if you have a history of mental illness in the fam, lucy in the sky with diamonds aint the best thing to take.


This is relatively true. BUT, it seems something even as simple as setting can trigger psychosis. A perfect example of this is a couple of cases where military personnel in the 60's, who were deemed to be mentally healthy, were unknowingly fed lucy and it caused all sorts of crazy shit, including a few people to take their own lives. The same thing happened in the CIA, where agents would pull pranks on each other by spiking drinks with it - and, subsequently, not knowing that they had taken it, either flipped out or became withdrawn, etc.

This kind of crap seemed to happen quite a lot on individuals who were supposedly mentally healthy, or at least appeared to be normal individuals. Having said that, I suspect that the ability to diagnose mental health is a lot more advanced now than back then.

I can't remember the link to the paper, but there was research a while ago, I think, that statistically showed lucy users in general aren't any more prone to mental health issues than the general public - but lucy does tend to bring underlying issues to the forefront. But, I can't comment on this 'research', as
I'd have to read the paper again.

As to lucy not causing psychosis itself, this seems to still be very much up for debate. Basically, it goes back to my other post where a lot of government funded researchers stupidly came to the conclusion that lucy was psychomimetic.

As a result, governments cracked down on researchers, then only started issuing grants to researchers (and these grants eventually just were never handed out). Then finally, it was outlawed based on the little research that had been done (and the government ignoring individual researchers who had contradictory research results).

Politics and The New Left movement also come into this quite heavily, too.

So it seems that the illegal nature of lucy is quite largely due to the government and government funded researchers quickly drawing conclusions, when obviously a lot more research needs to be done. I'd say the same is true for psychedelics in general.

 

atmospsypherica
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:50 am


mmmm well yes John Todd , inconsistencies and I have to say that Christianity is a con in itself - re Zeitgeist . But is is the one powerful tool to control people (religion- Sun God -Horace). So to The Illuminati this lie is it's best friend?

Having watched this video as it was posted on another topic,
Woody wrote :
[..]
Human Version 2.0

I think I have found it at on google and I REALY RECOMEND TAKING AN hour and watching it
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4239891699
[..]
Using this technology to do studies on people under the influence of psychedelics would be interesting. What real new research has been done in this area with modern technology? Or is that it is considered to be a waste of time money resources ,with no real purpose?
[/quote]

 

venatrix
Posts: 2795
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:43 pm


ATREYU wrote :
I suspect that there is more to the story than, your brain is fucked.


Nah, that's pretty much the long and the short of it mate. Chemical imbalance is a nice way of saying:

Image

Recovery is possible sometimes, sometimes not.

JourneyMan, stay away from the pot. If you have any after what you have been through it will almost certainly fuck your head up again.

 

The Journey Man Project
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:46 pm


yuh I stay completely away from the pot, and might have a few drinks here and there, but nothing else...

 

venatrix
Posts: 2795
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:43 pm


...
Last edited by venatrix on Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 

boondocksaint
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:37 am


venatrix wrote :
The Journey Man Project wrote :
yuh I stay completely away from the pot, and might have a few drinks here and there, but nothing else...


smart move. my doctor who has been treating 3 generations of my family over the last 30 years, well one of his sons got into pot, it fucked his head completely, and he was and still is in a mental hospital with no chance of leaving. mega schizophrenia. what people really need to remember is that drugs are like russian roulette, some people are just fine downing epic amounts of drugs for their entire lives, some people pop a pill or tasta a tab and the brain goes into nuclear meltdown, the rest of us are somewhere in between. my dad smoked a bit of pot as a teen in the 70s and he started having mental health problems so he stopped. ya think i would have taken the family history hint hey haha.


i think this gets to the issue. it is not just 'set and setting' - it is about who the person who is taking the drugs is; how they are feeling at the time; what latent mental dispositions they might have; dosage, quality; and perhaps a bit of luck.

as no one knows for sure how they will react, there is always a bit of chance.

still, it is bullshite that drugs are illegal. we should be free to fuck ourselves up in whatever we like. emphasis should be on education and treatment, not restricting our fundamental liberties! just as we're allowed to smoke 30 fags a day, or eat 10 big macs a day!
127 posts Page 1 of 6

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests