Albanian Kosovo

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Llama
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:46 pm


Very distressing to know that a thousand years of Serbian history in Kosovo is now erased by Albanians who have no historical claim to Kosovo. I'll probably be a lone wolf in this debate/issue but I have more then enough sufficient evidence and knowledge on this issue to know my viewpoint is the correct one no matter how ignorant I sound with this claim.
infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


Llama wrote :
Very distressing to know that a thousand years of Serbian history in Kosovo is now erased by Albanians who have no historical claim to Kosovo. I'll probably be a lone wolf in this debate/issue but I have more then enough sufficient evidence and knowledge on this issue to know my viewpoint is the correct one no matter how ignorant I sound with this claim.



Its really not that clear cut.

I am personally not happy to see the "Kosova" mafia state become a "country", in part to appease Albanian blackmail, in part to undermine Serbian power, in part to snub the Russians and in part due to beaurocratic inertia.

You will however find that historians are split on the "Serbian historical claim to Kosovo". A birthplace is not forged on a battlefield.

You're also biased because of your background.


Anyway, you know whats fucked up? This:

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2008 ... truth.html

A Bloodcurdling Revelation in Del Ponte's Book

Now, however, the much discussed Carla del Ponte's book "The Hunt" offers a harrowing detail, revealing why have Serbian men been kidnapped throughout Kosovo province during past years instead of being killed on the spot, as is the usual KLA treatment for all non-Albanians, especially those of Serbian ethnicity: because they were used as a livestock for organ harvesting in the illegal trade with human organ transplants.

According to Glas Javnosti, writing about one of the failed investigations regarding the fate of around 300 abducted Kosovo Serbs who were taken to northern Albania, Del Ponte says that the kidnapped young men were not beaten and were well fed. There was an improvised surgery room in one of the houses, where young Serbs had their internal organs removed to be shipped over the Tirana airport "Mother Teresa" abroad, where the organs of the healthy young Serbs were sold.

The victims who had only one kidney removed during the first carve-up were sutured and returned to imprisonment, to live until they would get killed for their other vital organs, when the right buyer is found. According to Carla del Ponte, the Serbs held in this monstrous human stable Josef Mengele would envy, begged to be killed.



At least the north will split off and rejoin Serbia. The bigger question though, is what will happen to Republica Srpska? And what will the Russians do now that the Americans have really pissed them off?

If the Radicals win the Serbian election in May, thats when the shit will really hit the fan,

 

Llama
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:46 pm


Yes, I must say I am biased cause of my Greek heritage, but to anyone who looks into this issue deep enough knows that the Serb claim heavily outways the Albanian. Albanians claim to be ancestors of the Illyrian people who DO have rightful claim to Kosovo and for a matter of fact, a majority of 'Great Albania' par Epirus in North Eastern Greece and the island of Corfu/Kerkyra in Greece. However, the Illyrians with there language and culture is gone and lost forever, when the people became Hellenised or adopted (forcefully or not, I don't know) Slavic culture. It's even worse when the Albanians claim Illyrian ancestory yet there language is basically 100% different with the Albanian language being closer to the Turkic language group, particularly Azerbaijani. Ironically, Albanians originate from that area as well before mass migration to the Adriatic Coast before spreading inland into the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
I mean this is what the Serbs have to defend Image

And to strengthen the Serb arguement:

In the 14th Century, Albanians in Kosovo only accounted 1,8% of the total population.
In the 15th Century there was only 46 Albanians living in Kosovo.
By the 19th Century Albanians accounted for 32% of the population of Kosovo.
By 1921 Albanians accounted for 65.8% of the population of Kosovo.
By 1961 Albanians made up 67.1% of the population of Kosovo.
1971 Albanians made up 73.7%.
1974 - 77.42%
1981 - 81,6%
1995 - 89.9%

And in 2007
92% Albanians
5.3% Serbs

the problem is, Albania want to expand their country as of shown in this map - Image
Including, Kosovo, other regions of Serbia, half of Montenegro, half of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, nothern region of Greece, and half of the island of Corfu in which my dad was born.
The problem is, these regions have for over a thousand years been Orthodox Christian lands, and the Albanians are not ethnic to the region. They are a Muslim Caucasian people as seen in the following maps (top right corner)

Image

Image

I've had my rant for now.

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


exposing the lie that Serbians tried to drive Albanians out of Kosovo:

http://politicalmavens.com/index.php/20 ... osovo-war/

[quote]
Eve-Ann Prentice, the British journalist who testified at the Milosevic trial that she saw bin Laden at [wartime Bosnian President] Izetbegovic’s offices, covered the 1998-99 Kosovo conflict for The Guardian and the London Times.

The difference between Ms. Prentice and most Western journalists who covered the war is the fact that she covered it from inside Kosovo, while her colleagues chose to report the war from the sidelines - particularly from the refugee camps in Macedonia and Albania.

The problem with reporting from the refugee camps was that the KLA had minders in the camps to ensure that all of the refugees peddled the same line when speaking to journalists.

Unlike her colleagues in the refugee camps, Ms. Prentice took great pains to ensure that whenever she interviewed civilians, neither the KLA nor the Serbian security forces were present.

According to Ms. Prentice’s testimony, the vast majority of ethnic Albanian civilians she interviewed told her that they were under immense pressure to leave Kosovo and that most of the pressure was coming from the KLA.

Only one of the Albanians that she interviewed told her that he was afraid of the Serbian security forces.

According to Prentice’s testimony, “The KLA told ethnic Albanian civilians that it was their patriotic duty to leave because the world was watching. This was their one big opportunity to make Kosovo part of Albania eventually, that NATO was there, ready to come in, and that anybody who failed to join the exodus was not supporting the Albanian cause.â€
fnarky
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:20 pm


Llama wrote :
Very distressing to know that a thousand years of Serbian history in Kosovo is now erased by Albanians who have no historical claim to Kosovo. I'll probably be a lone wolf in this debate/issue but I have more then enough sufficient evidence and knowledge on this issue to know my viewpoint is the correct one no matter how ignorant I sound with this claim.



Shyeah... kinda like how several hundred years of history were wiped out when the Serbs destroyed Sarejevo. That history included artifacts, manuscripts and art dating from a true European golden age when Catholics, Orthodox Christians, like yourself, Jews and Muslims lived harmoniously side by side.

And that's without even mentioning the thousands of civilians that were raped and murdered by Serbs and Croats during the war that Serbs instigated in the 1990s.

The Serbs have shown themselves throughout modern history to be a brutal, bloody people who will rightly draw little sympathy for their losses in Kosovo.

 

fnarky
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:20 pm


PS: I only just read Infinafta's note... I'm glad that you at least aknowledge that. Because really, it is extremely hypocritical to bemoan the Serbian losses in Kosovo, as they pale in comparison to what was lost during the Bosnian war.
infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


fnarky wrote :
Llama wrote :
Very distressing to know that a thousand years of Serbian history in Kosovo is now erased by Albanians who have no historical claim to Kosovo. I'll probably be a lone wolf in this debate/issue but I have more then enough sufficient evidence and knowledge on this issue to know my viewpoint is the correct one no matter how ignorant I sound with this claim.



Shyeah... kinda like how several hundred years of history were wiped out when the Serbs destroyed Sarejevo. That history included artifacts, manuscripts and art dating from a true European golden age when Catholics, Orthodox Christians, like yourself, Jews and Muslims lived harmoniously side by side.


Well, firstly I call bullshit on this "true European golden age" rubbish. It certainly wasn't very golden for the Serbs under the Ottoman Empire, if thats the multicultural paradise you're referring to.

You know what this is?

Image

Thats the skulls of Serbs who dared to rebel against their Ottoman overlords in the 19th century.

After the retreat of the Serbian rebel army, the Turkish commander of Niš, Hurshid Pasha, ordered that the heads of the killed Serbians were to be mounted on a tower to serve as a warning to any other would-be revolutionaries. In all, 952 skulls were included, with the skull of Sinđelić placed at the top. The scalps from the skulls were stuffed with cotton and sent to Constantinople (modern Istanbul) as proof for Sultan Mahmud II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower


The Balkans were battleground against the ever advancing Ottoman's for centuries. Here's a history of this peaceful living side by side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe
Centuries of Jihad against Europe (note how often the Serbs feature). What is this "golden age" you are referring to where all those people lived peaceful side by side? Or was is happening on the other side of Europe, in Spain, France etc, where two million Europeans were taken into slavery in the "sea jihad" by the North Africans, in part aided by the Ottomans? Not to mention the intra-European fighting.


And secondly, getting back to modern history, the Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians all joined with the Nazis in WW2 in Serb (and Jew and Roma etc) slaughter. The Croat Stasi were so brutal, they disgusted even the Nazi SS, sawing heads of live Serbs with handsaws.

At this time Croat Catholics forced Orthodox Serbs to convert to Catholicism. (yeah, Muslim dont have a monopoly on forced conversions in the 20th century).

Its true that the Serbs have a chip on their shoulder. They even have a say that "its tough being a Serb". They have this victim complex because they see themselves as historic defenders against the Islamic Jihad for 800 years, who are totally unappreciated by the people for whom they took the damage - the rest of Europe. The claim is not exactly without merit.

And that's without even mentioning the thousands of civilians that were raped and murdered by Serbs and Croats during the war that Serbs instigated in the 1990s.


By far the worst attrocities in those wars were committed by the foreign Jihadists, who came to fight on the side of the Bosnians, Bin Laden being one of their leaders and facilitators. Would you like me to post photos and videos of jihadists fighting for the Bosniaks, executing Serbs, playing soccer with their heads and torturing them?

And did you read the part about Albanians organ harvesting Serbs?

It is the Croats who right now, on mass, admire Hitler and are having a Fascist revival.

It is the Bosniak Muslim forces who committed the worst atrocities of all the wars of the 1990's.

It is KLA dogs of the Kosovo Albanians who lead the rape and murder tally.

It is the NATO spin machine that turned everything on its head, determined to dismember Yugoslavia, including completely fabricated photos of Serb "concentration camps". (can provide those too, if you like, with proof)

Don't believe me? Here's what a French Major Pierre-Henri Bunel who served in Bosnia had to say:

Q: Even though, as you say, you were only following orders, it is obvious that there was a humanitarian aspect to your actions...

PHB: Absolutely! Here's what happened: we saw that the operation against Yugoslavia is in the making, the one Americans wanted at any cost. The French, even President Chirac, were against it. For a number of reasons. Certain number of French soldiers, especially those who served in former Yugoslavia, have realized that the Serbs are not the problem. I served under NATO in Bosnia and I never had any problems with the Serbs. We had problems with Muslims and Croats. After all, during the process against me, the French General Rudaux, who commanded the international forces in Sarajevo, said the same thing.

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2008 ... ffair.html

Outraged by bullshit the Americans where spinning Bunel handed over NATO documents detailing their plans, over to a Serb friend General. He was tried for treason in France for these actions.

The Serbs have shown themselves throughout modern history to be a brutal, bloody people who will rightly draw little sympathy for their losses in Kosovo.



Or so the bullshit NATO propoganda has got you believing. Serbs were no angels and committed some atrocities in the 90s. But to point at them as the sole bad guys in the Balkan wars is ridiculous. And the claim about them being "brutal, bloody people" in modern history is simply insulting, considering what was done to them throughout modern history.
tripn
Posts: 6721
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:28 pm


infinafta wrote :
The Croat Stasi were so brutal, they disgusted even the Nazi SS, sawing heads of live Serbs with handsaws.


jesus. thats just fucking evil.
infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


tripn wrote :
infinafta wrote :
The Croat Stasi were so brutal, they disgusted even the Nazi SS, sawing heads of live Serbs with handsaws.


jesus. thats just fucking evil.



here you fucking go

Image

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/knifed.html

The caption under the same photograph reads (quote):

Mass murders were supplemented by the massacre of individuals, mostly in rural districts. Instances of the utmost ferocity occured. The Ustashi very often used the most primitive weapons, such as forks, spades, hammers and saws, to torture their victims prior to their execution. They broke their legs, pulled off their skin and beards, blinded them by cutting their eyes with knifes and even tearing them from their sockets,...

...In this photograph Ustashi are torturing an Orthodox Serb with a saw prior to executing him. Somewhere in Bosnia, in 1943. The photograph was found in the pocket of a dead Ustashi in 1945.



And why they were doing this:

Ustashe for Dummies
The word "Ustaše" is a plural of "Ustaša"--a person who participates in "Ustanak" (uprising). Translating to 'insurgent' in English. The Ustaše aimed at an ethnically "pure" Croatia, and saw the Serbs that lived in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina as the their biggest obstacle. Thus, Ustaše ministers Mile Budak, Mirko Puk, and Milovan Žanić declared in May 1941 that the goal of the Ustaše was


-One third of the Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) were to be forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism (which met with the approval of the Roman Catholic church and hierarchy in the environs and in Rome).
-One third of the Serbs were to be expelled.
-One third of the Serbs were to be liquidated.



A small problem with the Nazi ideology was that the Croats are Slavs and thus themselves "inferior" by Nazi standards. Ustaša ideologues thus created a theory about a pseudo-Gothic origin of the Croats in order to raise their standing on the Aryan ladder.

The Ustaše held that Bosnian Muslims were Croats of the Muslim faith. Unlike Orthodox Serbs, Muslims were not persecuted by them and some joined in the Nazi and Ustaše forces as part of Waffen-SS divisions 13th SS Mountain Division Handschar in Muslim Bosnia (led by Amin al-Husayni) and 23rd SS Grenadier Division Kama advised by Edmund Glaise von Horstenau (the representative of the German military in Croatia) and led by Colonel Ivan Markulj, who was later replaced by Colonel Viktor Pavicic. Lt-Col. Marko Mesic commanded the artillery section. The state even converted a former museum in Zagreb for use as a mosque.

On other subjects, Ustaše were against industrialization and democracy.

http://sokolac.slavicnet.com/sokolac/so ... forum.html


Ustashi carrying the head of an Orthodox Serb priest:
Image

plenty more here:

http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/ ... orror.html

people beheaded with axes, a Catholic priest calling for all Orthodox Serbs, including children to be wiped out (Orthodox being Satanic to him), people tortured, ripped apart, one Croatian commander who collected eyeballs, the "skull crushers" battallion, still beating hearts ripped out, etc etc etc

That is the "modern history" of Serbs. See why they're feeling a little betrayed yet?

 

fnarky
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:20 pm


The Golden age I'm referring to was roughly between the 14th and 16th centuries, when much of Western Europe was still in the dark ages - and when the Ottomans were generally more advanced in everything from maths and science to civic infrastructure to the arts.

If you go to the town centre in Sarejevo you will see a Mosque, a Synagogue, an Orthodox church and a Catholic curch all within a few hundred metres of one another. It's a miracle they are still standing when so much else from this era was destroyed. The other famous survivor was the Sarejevo Hagada - a Jewish Manuscript that Muslim librarians protected through the Bosnian war.

The Muslim brutality you described dates from a much later period so, in answer to your question, no - that was clearly not the Golden age I was describing.

If you need more convincing, here are a couple of Wikipedia articles that illustrate what I'm saying. I know how much you like Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Ottoman_Sarajevo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Ottoman_Sarajevo


As for the brutaility of Serbs throughout modern history, I'll admit that I overstated the case. I'd kinda lumped them in with the Croats to the wartime fascist basket. Didn't realise they were victims of the Ustashi.

Nonetheless, my point about hypocricy still stands due to the barbarism the Serbs displayed under Milosevic. Like snipers targeting small children queing for water. Like men forced to watch their wives being raped. Like cold-blooded murder of many thousands of innocents. Hard for the Serbs to garner sympathy with so much blood on their hands.

 

arcadian
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:38 pm


"My mother is Serbian and my father a Croatian, everyday i wake up and i want to kill myself!" :D

 

Pure__Ignorance
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:21 pm


Oh well, I don't guess anyone, let alone Serbians or Albanians are willing yet to just be fucking people. Damn shame.

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


Pure__Ignorance wrote :
Oh well, I don't guess anyone, let alone Serbians or Albanians are willing yet to just be fucking people. Damn shame.




http://www.australiens.net/forum/viewto ... 417#144417

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


Its a sad day indeed when I have to resort to quoting John Pilger. Just look how crazy he gets towards the end there. Its almost like he is channeling Noam Chomsky or something.



Don't forget what happened in Yugoslavia

Published 14 August 2008

John Pilger

Even as Blair the war leader was on a triumphant tour of "liberated" Kosovo, the KLA was ethnically cleansing more than 200,000 Serbs and Roma from the province

The secrets of the crushing of Yugoslavia are emerging, telling us more about how the modern world is policed. The former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia in The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, this year published her memoir The Hunt: Me and War Criminals. Largely ignored in Britain, the book reveals unpalatable truths about the west's intervention in Kosovo, which has echoes in the Caucasus.

The tribunal was set up and bankrolled principally by the United States. Del Ponte's role was to investigate the crimes committed as Yugoslavia was dismembered in the 1990s. She insisted that this include Nato's 78-day bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in 1999, which killed hundreds of people in hospitals, schools, churches, parks and tele vision studios, and destroyed economic infrastructure. "If I am not willing to [prosecute Nato personnel]," said Del Ponte, "I must give up my mission." It was a sham. Under pressure from Washington and London, an investigation into Nato war crimes was scrapped.

Readers will recall that the justification for the Nato bombing was that the Serbs were committing "genocide" in the secessionist province of Kosovo against ethnic Albanians. David Scheffer, US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as "225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" may have been murdered. Tony Blair invoked the Holocaust and "the spirit of the Second World War". The west's heroic allies were the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose murderous record was set aside. The British foreign secretary, Robin Cook, told them to call him any time on his mobile phone.

With the Nato bombing over, international teams descended upon Kosovo to exhume the "holocaust". The FBI failed to find a single mass grave and went home. The Spanish forensic team did the same, its leader angrily denouncing "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines". A year later, Del Ponte's tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The "holocaust" was a lie. The Nato attack had been fraudulent.

That was not all, says Del Ponte in her book: the KLA kidnapped hundreds of Serbs and transported them to Albania, where their kidneys and other body parts were removed; these were then sold for transplant in other countries. She also says there was sufficient evidence to prosecute the Kosovar Albanians for war crimes, but the investigation "was nipped in the bud" so that the tribunal's focus would be on "crimes committed by Serbia". She says the Hague judges were terrified of the Kosovar Albanians - the very people in whose name Nato had attacked Serbia.

Indeed, even as Blair the war leader was on a triumphant tour of "liberated" Kosovo, the KLA was ethnically cleansing more than 200,000 Serbs and Roma from the province. Last February the "international community", led by the US, recognised Kosovo, which has no formal economy and is run, in effect, by criminal gangs that traffic in drugs, contraband and women. But it has one valuable asset: the US military base Camp Bondsteel, described by the Council of Europe's human rights commissioner as "a smaller version of Guantanamo". Del Ponte, a Swiss diplomat, has been told by her own government to stop promoting her book.

Yugoslavia was a uniquely independent and multi-ethnic, if imperfect, federation that stood as a political and economic bridge in the Cold War. This was not acceptable to the expanding European Community, especially newly united Germany, which had begun a drive east to dominate its "natural market" in the Yugoslav pro vinces of Croatia and Slovenia. By the time the Europeans met at Maastricht in 1991, a secret deal had been struck; Germany recognised Croatia, and Yugoslavia was doomed. In Washington, the US ensured that the struggling Yugoslav economy was denied World Bank loans and the defunct Nato was reinvented as an enforcer. At a 1999 Kosovo "peace" conference in France, the Serbs were told to accept occupation by Nato forces and a market economy, or be bombed into submission. It was the perfect precursor to the bloodbaths in Afghanistan and Iraq.



Oh, and hooray for Joe [url=http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/17708/index.php]“all Serbs should be placed in Nazi-style concentration campsâ€

 

SamuraiJack
Posts: 10043
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:56 am


Yes. Australiens.

A good place to post useful information.

Or, then again, not.

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


What useful information?

I just like seeing my name on the screen and being racist.
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