Meditation and HF Gamma Activity in the brain

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Gozer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:45 pm


This ongoing scientific research into meditation (Theravada Vipassana) has gained media attention as the results are showing increased high frequency gamma activity in the brain and it is suggested that it is possible to remap the brain at any age.

Washington Post 3 Jan 2005 but clipped from the end of teh article when reported in The Age wrote :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 5Jan2.html
A researcher at the University of Massachusetts, Jon Kabat-Zinn, came to a similar conclusion several years ago.

Researchers at Harvard and Princeton universities are now testing some of the same monks on different aspects of their meditation practice: their ability to visualize images and control their thinking. Davidson is also planning further research.

"What we found is that the trained mind, or brain, is physically different from the untrained one," he said. In time, "we'll be able to better understand the potential importance of this kind of mental training and increase the likelihood that it will be taken seriously."

Jan 2002 Interview with Prof Richardson
Meditation is not going to be good for all patients with emotional disorders and it may even be bad for certain types of patients. It’s clear that it will be helpful as an adjunct. There is a British scientist who is very well known, John Teasdale, a depression researcher. What John has actually demonstrated is that mindfulness meditation can significantly improve a depressed patient’s ability to prevent relapse. So it’s not so much effective in treating initial depression but once the depression has subsided they can begin to practice the meditation. They can actually significantly minimize relapse.
Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm




"What we found is that the trained mind, or brain, is physically different from the untrained one"


No shit, sherlock! How much money did you spend now to find that out?

"we'll be able to better understand the potential importance of this kind of mental training and increase the likelihood that it will be taken seriously"


Haha, the arrogance of scientists cracks me up sometimes. As if the world is waiting for empirical evidence to see if meditation actually works. Heres a scientific experiment, why not try it yourself rather than look at the brain patterns of a monk? Funny.

But it does seem that science is meeting at a kind of juncture point with religion. Which I suppose is a good thing. Science can only discover so much, before it needs to go internal and personal to be really discovered.

Thats why I do appreciate the work of transpersonal psychologist Ken Wilber. His breakthrough in understanding the relationship between empiricism and subjective understanding has opened quite a few doors in this regard.

 

Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


http://www.centerpointe.com/index.php

Anyone else come across this stuff? It's working on research showing the different frequencies that the brain works on eg. alpha - awake, alert... beta - concentration, focused... theta - meditative, creative... delta - deep meditation (usually only reached by advanced buddhist et al meditationers, and how to induce these states using sound.

They found that by having sounds of two different frequencies played through each ear the brain would resonate at the difference between the two frequencies. Thus you're able to induce extremely deep meditative states. I've done the first level of the program and it is quite incredible. You put on headphones and play the cd and slip into an extremely relaxed state. It causes your brain to release all sorts of endorphins and other pleasurable chems and feels what i expect ecstacy would feel like if i'd ever tried it...

In a sense it's using technology to cheat and get to the level of a very practised meditator. Part of me doesn't like that side of things and thinks i should just spend years in a cave in nepal.... but another part of me likes the easy and instantaneous results. I've had some very interesting experiences with it even to the point of having vivid visions of some past lives (that i had delved into earlier with some past life regressions.)

Highly recommended to all of you. There's a free demo you can find on the website and if anyone's interested i could arrange a copy of the first level...

There's about 12 levels (so to do the whole course would take upwards of 15 years) and beyond the first they are individually tailored so copying beyond that is not possible.

N.B. I in no way endorse the copying of copyrighted material and only make an exception above as it is in the interest of helping others to develop and would in a sense assist the Holosync tm. Corporation as anyone listening to the first level would be more likely to continue with the rest of the program.
Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


Katsushiro wrote :


"What we found is that the trained mind, or brain, is physically different from the untrained one"


No shit, sherlock! How much money did you spend now to find that out?

"we'll be able to better understand the potential importance of this kind of mental training and increase the likelihood that it will be taken seriously"


Haha, the arrogance of scientists cracks me up sometimes. As if the world is waiting for empirical evidence to see if meditation actually works. Heres a scientific experiment, why not try it yourself rather than look at the brain patterns of a monk? Funny.

But it does seem that science is meeting at a kind of juncture point with religion. Which I suppose is a good thing. Science can only discover so much, before it needs to go internal and personal to be really discovered.

Thats why I do appreciate the work of transpersonal psychologist Ken Wilber. His breakthrough in understanding the relationship between empiricism and subjective understanding has opened quite a few doors in this regard.


Yeah that's right, why don't you just bag something out without understanding what you're going on about.. Seems to be de rigeur on australiens these days, at least for a handful of arrogant twats. This kind of research is quite important particularly in the west which has always relied more on factual scientific data than esoteric ideas. If this research has the effect of legitimising meditation in the eyes of millions more people then it can only be a good thing. Sure many of us and many in the west don't need data and facts to see that meditation has incredible value, but the more people jump on the bandwagon the better for all of us.

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


Huh? I said that it was pretty much a good thing. Or did you miss that bit?
bobret the hobret
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:15 pm


Katsushiro wrote :


"What we found is that the trained mind, or brain, is physically different from the untrained one"


No shit, sherlock! How much money did you spend now to find that out?


But it does seem that science is meeting at a kind of juncture point with religion. Which I suppose is a good thing. Science can only discover so much, before it needs to go internal and personal to be really discovered.


hahaha i dont think that the PHYSICAL makeup of your brain changing is a fact to go "A-DERRRR" at.. although i knew this a while ago, i was quite surprised to find this out..

i totally agree with the second statement too jesse- spot on!

 

Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


Katsushiro wrote :
Huh? I said that it was pretty much a good thing. Or did you miss that bit?


Blame mondayitis... 6am starts don't agree with me.

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


Good on ya bill,
id agree with you regarding all the bagging out that goes on here, what up with that? There's a way to disagree with ppls without all that negativity. Really didn't expect all this tearing apart of people for expressing their views. We are all looking upon this world through our own window, so why bag the view from anothers? Isn't that what doofings about? creating that positive space to allow ourselves to express and explore ourselves. Is it only me that is perplexed by this? That this creating of a positive, nurturing environment doesn't always flow through to here. I really treasure the feelings and experiences of being connected to and supported by you all and yet journeying on my own distinct path.
(END RANT)

On another note am v. interested in gleaning a copy of the first level of holosync from you bill. Had a look at their website and it seems to be based on the idea of sound virations and how they resonate with certain energy points on the body (chakras). Have had limited experience with this through my roomie who uses tuning forks to create specific sound vibrations for healing. You can definitely feel the energy in the vibration. Am a bit sceptical of wether the digitised version would perhaps be watered down or not. But no point in being a sceptic unless you're gonna research first, right?


big love and happiness,
anna

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


[quote="anushka"] all the bagging out that goes on here,

not meant as an attack on you guys here persay, but just a general comment on what's surprised me as a newbie doofer.

 

Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


Thanks Anna,

My rant wasn't directed completely at you Katsu, just the often instant negativity that appears on threads. The whole, ' derr, didn't you know that?" or "God that's a stupid thing to say" Just coz you don't necessarily agree with something . (Again, not directed at thou K.) If people are cut down often enough when posting their ideas eventually no new or interesting (however wrong or right) ideas will be presented and we will turn Australiens into a group of completely conforming knobjockeys like most of the rest of society. Vive le difference! i say. If you don't agree with an idea on a post and you can't come up with a semi-polite or interesting comment on it and why you don't agree then don't write anything.

Obviously all this excludes SamuraiJack, our resident agony aunt, who can feel free to continue abusing, mocking and generally causing mayhem however he likes. It's good for our egos to be cut down occasionally.

Back to Holosync......

I'm not too sure how it does interact with the chakra's anna, though i'm sure it does, but the main thing it does is put you into various states. We spend most of our waking time in the beta state (14-100hz) which is when your mind is active and flitting round like a hummingbird. One cd puts you into a alpha state which is slightly deeper (8-13.9hz) and is associated with relaxation, learning, light trance states and increased serotonin production. You would've experienced this when reading a book and it feels like you've lost track of time and become absorbed... Or if you're studying and it feels like your brain is just 'flowing' incredible smoothly.
Next is the theta state (4-7.9hz) which is achievable during REM sleep and during deep meditation. Artists often achieve this state when lost in creating their art. At these levels your brain does start to physically change and there is a potential for personal spiritual growth.

And then there is the delta state (.1-3.9hz) and i quote,

"Dreamless sleep, Human Growth Hormone released,
Deep, Trance-like non-physical state, loss of body awareness
Access to Unconscious and "collective unconscious" mind.

This is the province of extremely advanced meditators and where the biggest personal growth can occur. It feels weird with holosync, like a mild orgasm in your whole body. I've felt like i was drifting from my body and an incredible sense of peace. Also the imagery from past lives i mentioned above.

Make of all this what you will. I was skeptical at first, and a little wary. But i'm a curious person and having tried it have only had good results. I do plan eventually on retreating to a cave for 20 years, but until then, this and going 'bush' will have to do..... BB

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


Bouncybill wrote :
http://www.centerpointe.com/index.php

Anyone else come across this stuff?


they have an australian distributor - might be faster to order the demo etc from them.
http://www.meditate.com.au/
came across this a few weeks ago, but forgot about it, thanks for the reminder! just ordered the free demo.

np: Holosync internet demo

 

Dreamthief
Posts: 1556
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:00 pm


Bouncybill wrote :
http://www.centerpointe.com/index.php

Anyone else come across this stuff? It's working on research showing the different frequencies that the brain works on eg. alpha - awake, alert... beta - concentration, focused... theta - meditative, creative... delta - deep meditation (usually only reached by advanced buddhist et al meditationers, and how to induce these states using sound.

You know... This looks rather intriguing. I may check it out.

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


My whole point of contention is that scientists spend so much money and time to tell us the obvious. And then have the temerity to suggest that when they arrive at an empirical conclusion that we can all rest assured that something is safe and legitimate. Sure, if science can legitimize meditation then more people will do it. And that is a good thing, but seriously, who needs to listen to a scientists opinion before they get on a mat and try it themselves?

Meditation is a practice thousands of years old. Modern science has been around for what, maybe 400-500 years? Its like a 4 year old telling a 35 year old what is right or wrong, real or imaginary.

As for negativity. Come on guys, get some backbone will you? Im not a negative person, but I dont freak out when someone appears to be negative. How about learning to handle it? :)

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


Oh, as for Holosync. I would be very, very cautious. I was given those discs by a freind, and they didnt smell right from the get go.

I figured out that stuff is like steroids. It puts the brain into a place where it shouldnt be, far too quickly. There needs to be certain a certain sense of character development and strength of mind that increases as you progress in your meditation. If you get a quick fix, your constiution wont be able to handle it. Be very careful.

 

bobret the hobret
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:15 pm


i've ordered the demo but the crap thing is that theres talking through the track with the tones and also in the tracks after that.. im paranoid about listening to the first track when i go to bed and then being put in that deeply relaxed state and then hearing testimonials...

but that holysynch stuff really works wonders..

"meditate deeper than a zen monk" hahaha

and in terms of the arguing, i dont see a problem with it. dont be such a pussy mmkay? debate/arguement is good for developing a topic or issue

 

secret weapon
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:23 am


They found that by having sounds of two different frequencies played through each ear the brain would resonate at the difference between the two frequencies. Thus you're able to induce extremely deep meditative states.


Damn, another one of my secrets are out.

That's one of the main reasons I set up side fill speakers at doofs....

:)

 

Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


Yes it's cheesy, but then it comes from america.

I did as much research as i could before going for it, your steroid analogy is pretty good Katsu... but i don't think it's quite as harmful as that. all the data i found pointed to it being relatively benign.

But really, how much can we comment considering what we put our headz through on an average weekend. I can only give my personal experience, and that is all positive. In the 9 months i used it ( you get to a stage where it stops working, as your brain has 'grown' and is ready for the nextl, deeper level.) i found i became calmer, clearer and a lot less likely to be negatively affected by things. I felt mentally stronger. It's also great for sending you to sleep. The cd's an hour long, and if i was in bed with the lights out i'd be completely gone by 35 mins.

 

Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


Oh and i've never listened to one of the ones with talking on it. Fuck that.

 

suspiria
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:48 pm


LOVE ya work Sash!

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


My whole point of contention is that scientists spend so much money and time to tell us the obvious. And then have the temerity to suggest that when they arrive at an empirical conclusion that we can all rest assured that something is safe and legitimate. Sure, if science can legitimize meditation then more people will do it. And that is a good thing, but seriously, who needs to listen to a scientists opinion before they get on a mat and try it themselves?

Meditation is a practice thousands of years old. Modern science has been around for what, maybe 400-500 years? Its like a 4 year old telling a 35 year old what is right or wrong, real or imaginary.


Modern science ? huh? Science and peoples ideas of what science stands for has gotten a bum rap ever since the corporations started hijacking the scientific cause. There's no science for science sake anymore just feeding the bottom line of the pharmaceutical companies. coming to a chemist near you: meditation pills! Instant inner peace huh! Science has been around for yonks too. Think : the egyptians (for starters). Science is about understanding the natural world around us. (or at least it used to be). Understanding the what where how when and why of things. In this case it's about understanding how meditation works (i.e. all thoose brain wavey things you guys were talking about). me is quite cynical though that any understanding gained will find it's way into a neat little pill manufactured by some glaxosmithkline-like corporation soon to fill your bulk mail box with promises of inner peace.

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


techno bimbo is me
will eventually work out this "quote" format

 

Bouncybill
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:47 pm


The line between Science and spirituality needs to be stamped on and scuffed and set alight with petrol. It's all searching for the truth....

I blame the catholic church in the 1500's.

But then i blame them for everything. Including this huge spot i just got on my forehead.

 

Dreamthief
Posts: 1556
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:00 pm


If it's just working on a differentiation between the frequencies perceived in a stereo field, it would probably easy enough to reconstruct.

It would be interesting to see how you could reverse engineer it. :)

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


Bouncybill wrote :
I did as much research as i could before going for it, your steroid analogy is pretty good Katsu... but i don't think it's quite as harmful as that. all the data i found pointed to it being relatively benign.

But really, how much can we comment considering what we put our headz through on an average weekend. I can only give my personal experience, and that is all positive. In the 9 months i used it ( you get to a stage where it stops working, as your brain has 'grown' and is ready for the nextl, deeper level.) i found i became calmer, clearer and a lot less likely to be negatively affected by things. I felt mentally stronger. .


It just seems to me, like most of these things, is that it is a short cut. Short cuts are for people who are lazy. And if you take short cuts, in the long run it does you no good. Sure, it may altered your brain waves, but meditation isnt just about that, as you probably (hopefully) know. A holosync CD may claim to put you in a state that is deeper than a zen monk - but lets see you sit before a zen master in dokusan and answer a koan. It is the determination and persistance required in training that will bring a person to the spirit of the thing, not sitting down and letting something do the work for you. And that is the true mark of character.

 

SamuraiJack
Posts: 10043
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:56 am


a deeerrrrrr! As if it wasn't all obvious.

A DERRRRRRRRRRRRR FRED! Hah. So funny. So very,very, very funny.

Nnnnnnnggggggggggn!!!!! HHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGG!!!

uh...what?
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