Meditation and HF Gamma Activity in the brain

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Katsushiro
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Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


Bouncybill wrote :
http://www.centerpointe.com/index.php
In a sense it's using technology to cheat and get to the level of a very practised meditator. Part of me doesn't like that side of things and thinks i should just spend years in a cave in nepal.... but another part of me likes the easy and instantaneous results. I've had some very interesting experiences with it even to the point of having vivid visions of some past lives (that i had delved into earlier with some past life regressions.)


Well you would like to think that these things might be able to get you to the level of someone very practiced, but really, it wont. And obviously, the part of you that likes the easy and instantaneous results is very clearly the part that needs examination. You may have visions and feelings of ectsacy, and sure those things might be nice, but really those things arent particulary valuable. You can have those things on acid.

 

Gozer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:45 pm


I totally get your point Katsushiro, initially I didn't because of your first post but I do now. The greatest rewards are those worked for.

The scientific approach is looking into the relationship between emotions and certain types of disease.

For those whose brain has a damge, defect or a certain type of disease - who are not physically capable/mapped for the required concentration - what path lays before them?
Is their fate to suffer?

Interested in what is happening in brain when in a trance/meditative state but I tend to get focused on the "how does it work" but I have looked a little further today ..
I'm just asking because I don't know squat - so if I was in a straight (progressive :lol:) PsyTrance induced state am I taking the brain somewhere it shouldn't be?

 

Gozer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:45 pm


Bouncybill wrote :
Next is the theta state (4-7.9hz) which is achievable during REM sleep and during deep meditation. Artists often achieve this state when lost in creating their art. At these levels your brain does start to physically change and there is a potential for personal spiritual growth.
Dreamthief wrote :
If it's just working on a differentiation between the frequencies perceived in a stereo field, it would probably easy enough to reconstruct.

It would be interesting to see how you could reverse engineer it. :)

Probably heaps of research out there (that I'm too tired at the moment to go look for) but I did think after reading that and listening to that demo, that starting with the 3rd harmonic (between 32Hz-63.2Hz) and then take into account the binaural effect as to whether that effects the left/right side of the brain.. it maybe a matter of finding the resonance of the current brain state of the listener..

 

suspiria
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:48 pm


i think a room is needed for you two...

 

tract
Posts: 3661
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:45 pm


What a hilarious thread :D

 

Gozer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:45 pm


This internet thingy is fun to play with :wink:

 

tract
Posts: 3661
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:45 pm


Gozer wrote :
This internet thingy is fun to play with :wink:


Ha..I knew it..stop it Mr Gozer I'm spitting coffee on my monitor here :P

Ill map your mind my friend ...H O L O G R A P H I C A L L Y ;)

 

Gozer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:45 pm


:shock: Let there be light
Barbarian
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:00 am


Gozer wrote :
This ongoing scientific research into meditation (Theravada Vipassana) has gained media attention as the results are showing increased high frequency gamma activity in the brain and it is suggested that it is possible to remap the brain at any age.


I'm always amazed what the study of Theraveda can show... or what it can achieve, also :wink:

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


Gozer wrote :
Interested in what is happening in brain when in a trance/meditative state but I tend to get focused on the "how does it work" but I have looked a little further today ..
I'm just asking because I don't know squat - so if I was in a straight (progressive :lol:) PsyTrance induced state am I taking the brain somewhere it shouldn't be?


Interesting point Gozer

Is this also cheating? If putting yourself into a trancelike state through one type of music is cheating (i.e. holosync with the two different frequencies), then what makes dancing to any type of trance like music to induce this state so different? Aren't they both using external factors to induce a meditative state?

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


And furthermore what about the many other external helpers that are used for meditation, relaxation background music, incense , all these environmental factors that create a relaxing atmosphere. and what of the tibetan monks, and their mandallas are these not the same as any repetive behaviours such as knitting or any other craft that uses a repetitive action to induce a feeling of relaxation?

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


is using any type of "tool" cheating, or are we just utilising our intellect to make life easier?

If the chimpanzee uses a stick to collect the ants from the ants nest is he also cheating? Or has he just used his intellect to make his life easier.

i know this is a different type of analogy here. And I understand what was said before about the easy path being the one we usually learn least from. But just wanted to make the point that there are instances in life where the use of a tool to assist us is not in fact a bad thing.

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


anushka wrote :
And furthermore what about the many other external helpers that are used for meditation, relaxation background music, incense , all these environmental factors that create a relaxing atmosphere. and what of the tibetan monks, and their mandallas are these not the same as any repetive behaviours such as knitting or any other craft that uses a repetitive action to induce a feeling of relaxation?


Its quite simple to understand. If you are putting in some kind of effort, then it is worthwhile. If you are just sitting back and soaking something in, then its not as worthwhile. When you knit, or repeat a mantra, or paint, or weild a sword, then you are activley doing something that will bring you closer to the spirit of the thing. As I said, determination and persistance in the art of a thing will bring you to the heart of the matter.

There is a vast difference between simply relaxing and active meditation.

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


so, what if you meditate while listening to a holosync recording?


np. Rammstein - Moskau

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


As for dancing, I remember reading a quote from a monk that once went to a doof..."Its like meditation".

But I wouldnt say getting stoned and drugged up, or even not, and letting music carry you around is a very active form of meditation. Sure, its LIKE it. But its more relaxing than an active practice. You dont have to concentrate on anything.

Of course, there is the aspect where you practice your art to the point where everything you do is meditation, including dancing, but most people arent even close to that.

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


[quote="Katsushiro]If you are putting in some kind of effort, then it is worthwhile. If you are just sitting back and soaking something in, then its not as worthwhile.
[/quote]
As always comes down to your defintion of the matter at heart. what constitutes "putting in effort"? Is actively focusing on the sounds of the two frequencies the same as say actively focusing on the visual patterns of a mandala. They are using different senses but in the same repetitive fashion.

hmmmm

 

anushka
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


I remember a discussion i once had with my father about 10 years ago now. He was telling me of his travels in Rio, in particular the Carnivale. He was musing on the fact that a lot of latin rhythms induced a trance like state in the people moving to it, himself included. We got to comparing this to certain types of techno music (Or as he liked to call it "that bloody boom boom shake the room music that you listen to" bless him :) )

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


Well, Holosync works on the principle that you lay back and not concentrate on anything. There is no forward focus. You sit back and let it do the work. When you sit with a mandala you consciously drive yourself to become the mandala. Can't you see?

That was for both Anushka and Infinafta.

 

Dreamthief
Posts: 1556
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:00 pm


Anushka - Just on that.. It could be a factor of polyrhythms. Or, to put it a little more contextually, different rhythmic timings / frequency - as in cycle of repetition could cause the same effect as holosync. That's why I was interested in the holosync thing.

I mean, could you get the same kind of effect if you just played a C Major chord, with the C panned hard left, the G panned hard right, and the E left in the middle?

Would the beating of the different frequencies introduce the same effect as the holosync? Fascinating stuff. :)

 

Katsushiro
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Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


Rezox - The holosync uses subsonics embedded under sound effect beds. You do feel it, but you cant really hear it. By playing a simple chord like a C Major panned in different notes probably wouldnt create the same effect because the frequencies contained in each note are vastly different. Holosync introduces only subtle variations of the different frequencies on each side of the headphones.

Polyrythms are interesting however, there is a drumming technique called Taketina which I have done, which is basically a group drumming session based on the body - feet, hands and shout. You organically create polyrythms in diferent time signatures, it creates a very unsettling space, but sharpens your focus until you become settled into a rythm.

 

infinafta
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:19 pm


Katsushiro wrote :
Well, Holosync works on the principle that you lay back and not concentrate on anything.


You're implying that if you focus on something the principle will fail and Holosync will not work. Is that true?

There is no forward focus. You sit back and let it do the work. When you sit with a mandala you consciously drive yourself to become the mandala.


The whole point of my question was about your opinion on combining listening to Holosync WHILE meditating, ie while having forward focus, if that is the kind meditation being done. Would the combination enhance the meditation, in your opinion? Btw, I am sure you are aware that not all types of meditation involve having what you call "forward focus". Besides the fact that different meditations have different purposes, you may need to be reminded that there are "many different paths up the mountain". Actually, some meditations, especially at the beginner level, are quite passive. For example, ones involving focusing on the repetition of a mentra instead of an audio recording.


I know that listening to some musical recordings while meditating or doing tai chi I reached meditative states in a couple of minutes that at other times took me about 15 minutes to reach. Here's 2 examples - listening to an artist called Wunjo while doing tantric mantra meditation and listening to an artist called Sainkho while doing tai chi. There was 1 particular track from each that works particularly well that I put on repeat. In addition there is a recording from some artists from the Glasshouse Mountains in Queensland (something about "hypno-melodic themes") that have a couple of tracks that also work.
I am curious as to whether Holosync will in the same way or even better.

Can't you see?


Try not to identify with your sense of intellectual seniority when you are asked a simple, direct and reasonable question.

 

Gozer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:45 pm


Katsushiro wrote :
That was for both Anushka and Infinafta.
infinafta wrote :
Can't you see?

Try not to identify with your sense of intellectual seniority when you are asked a simple, direct and reasonable question.

Pfft .. appears not to be in the spirit of open discussion anyway .. :roll:

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


this really is fascinating stuff guys. Am really enjoying your viewpoints.

 

anushka
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:48 am


Passively listening to binaural beats may not spontaneously propel you into an altered state of consciousness. One’s subjective experience in response to binaural-beat stimulation may also be influenced by a number of mediating factors. For example, the willingness and ability of the listener to relax and focus attention may contribute to binaural-beat effectiveness in inducing state changes. "Ultradian rhythms in the nervous system are characterized by periodic changes in arousal and states of consciousness (Rossi, 1986;

http://web-us.com/thescience.htm#What%2 ... ral%20Beat

 

Katsushiro
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:35 pm


You're implying that if you focus on something the principle will fail and Holosync will not work. Is that true?


I dont know, probably. If you follow the directions of holosync, it specifies that you need to just relax and let it do its job. If you arent going to follow the directions, then whats the point of using it?

Your only making a very simple thing more complicated by thinking about it. As far as holosync goes, its a lazy way to get to a certain brain wave. If you want to get any fruits out of meditation, I wouldnt recommend using it. Its the drive that you use to get to the heart of the spirit of the thing that matters. I cant emphasise this enough.

The whole point of my question was about your opinion on combining listening to Holosync WHILE meditating, ie while having forward focus, if that is the kind meditation being done. Would the combination enhance the meditation, in your opinion? Btw, I am sure you are aware that not all types of meditation involve having what you call "forward focus". Besides the fact that different meditations have different purposes, you may need to be reminded that there are "many different paths up the mountain". Actually, some meditations, especially at the beginner level, are quite passive. For example, ones involving focusing on the repetition of a mentra instead of an audio recording.


If you use a chairlift to get up a mountain, your legs dont get as strong. And then you start to rely on using a chairlift all the time. And then your legs get fat.

If you are repeating a mantra, YOU are putting in energy to attain a result. This is very simple to understand.

I know that listening to some musical recordings while meditating or doing tai chi I reached meditative states in a couple of minutes that at other times took me about 15 minutes to reach. Here's 2 examples - listening to an artist called Wunjo while doing tantric mantra meditation and listening to an artist called Sainkho while doing tai chi. There was 1 particular track from each that works particularly well that I put on repeat. In addition there is a recording from some artists from the Glasshouse Mountains in Queensland (something about "hypno-melodic themes") that have a couple of tracks that also work.
I am curious as to whether Holosync will in the same way or even better.


I know nothing about Tai Chi. But isnt it glaringly obvious to you that if you reach a certain state quicker simply with the assistance of a piece of music, then its not as good for you?

Try not to identify with your sense of intellectual seniority when you are asked a simple, direct and reasonable question.


Dont be silly man. Me? Intellectually superior? I think not. Im just pointing out something really obvious here. Just look at it! haha.
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